Comments on: What are we doing this for — really?

By: Matt Fricker

Matt Fricker — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:00:09 +0000

A good farmer is the one who ploughs the ground to the right depth.
A god farmer is the one who sows the seed.
A good farmer is the one who fertilizes the ground.
A good farmer is the one who sprays for weed and pest control.
A good farmer is the one who keeps the fences standing so that livestock don’t trample the ground.
A good farmer is the one who gets his machinery ready for the harvest.

But if it doesn’t rain… and the sun doesn’t shine… and the crop doesn’t grow… does that make him a bad farmer?

By: Jared D

Jared D — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:34:47 +0000

I have been reading a business book that talks about business practices and how they are directly correlated to being a shepherd. Not everything in this book is applicable but it has totally revolutionized how I look and take care of my sheep because I am there shepherd. It will help answer the way we may or may not desribe success. It is an amazingly easy read as well.

“The Way of the Shepherd” Dr. Kevin Leman and William Pentak

By: riddle

riddle — Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:15:10 +0000

i really like these questions. it’s really tricky isn’t it. I think it was W. Edwards Deming who said that 90 precent of what matters in an organization can’t be measured. (and he was talking about business, not the church)

How we measure or understand success is a very important question because it informs how we do things.

To really get this, we need to understand that unless a person or organization is really willing to do a lot of reflective work to understand his/her/their motivations, you probably don’t know what all of your measures for success are.

The result of our conventional measures in the church lends itself to manipulation. Who hasn’t felt the pressure to round the numbers up a bit when working for a church who values attendance figuires? or Wanted simply been a bit more preoccupied with getting more kids, because of the measurement standard? The problem with this type of measurement as well know is that the organization actually isn’t getting the information is actually wants! I believe all churches actually want to see people grow closer to Christ, to build his kingdom, to serve others, to care for the least of these. (but this could be my assumption)
The problem is, that the conventional ways of measuring success in a church actually lead the church away from what it actually values.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t measure, but I’m just advocating have a better understanding of what happens when we do and remembering that what we measure is only a very small part of what we actually value.

Over time measurement leads to reductionistic thinking.

Man I could talk about this for a long time… So I’ll drop a few more thoughts.

I think that creation is critical for helping us understand how we can measure.

Some things I’ve learned from nature.
1. Nature doesn’t count. A management accountant named H. Thomas Johnson taught me that.

2. Nothing grows forever. The other way of saying this is, everything dies. Which begs the question, what is a church life cycle and why do we see it as a bad thing when a church closes it’s doors. To embrace life as a church, we must embrace that our local church will not last forever and that this is a good thing.

3. Reductionistic thinking leads to mechanistic thinking… which disrupts our understanding of nature.

Ok. I’ll stop….
Thanks for the opportunity Chris…
I think this post might find it’s way to my blog.

By: Chris

Chris — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 05:01:00 +0000

Dave, Tim and Chris-

These are really good thoughts. Thanks for your insight. Dave- Great reminder that things happen in God’s time, not ours. Tim- Yeah, that will be evidence of our faithfulness for sure! Chris – Nice Words. I was just talking to Bo today about personal transformation that is deep! He’ll be gald to know that those three things that you mentioned resonated with you… Thanks for your input!!

By: Chris Day

Chris Day — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:58:14 +0000

I just started reading Bo Boshers and Judson Polings new book ‘the be with factor’ and in the first chapter they talk about 3 things that really resonated with me on the topic of success n student ministry. (1)Jesus’ impact was one of personal transformation deep within the souls of those he touched; (2) Jesus was a success despite dismal numbers because the measurement that mattered wasn’t just a short-term body count; (3)Deep transformation of a few who continue to influence others is the measure we should gauge success by in student ministry.
I think if we are going to think in terms of success it shouldn’t be about “who is where” but “is there anyone that my life has touched that is in turn affecting and impacting lives for the sake of the Gospel producing real life chage.” Obviously real life change happens through the Holy Spirit and not us but are our student ministries producing life changing or life altering disciples of Jesus Christ? I don’t think we even have to produce them in “masses.” But have we touched someone’s life who is now helping to bring about change in someone else’s life because they are living for Christ with a reckless abandon?

By: Tim

Tim — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:35:37 +0000

Wow, good question. But maybe this is a case of having a wrong answer because we’re asking the wrong question. I’m not really sure what the right question here is, but I’m feeling that trying to define spiritual success in earthly terms isn’t gonna quite work… I dunno…

Maybe the right question to ask is something like, “Based on my involvement in ministry, will God greet me one day and say, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.’” I know that’s still really intangible, but so is spiritually and what we’re ultimately working toward.

By: Dave

Dave — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:22:31 +0000

Interesting that I read this at a time when I was having a conversation with a friend about ministry and they asked me if I thought our kids were growing spiritually. It made me wrestle with similar thoughts to the ones you are sharing.

I agree with what you have shared here (and in your book) – especially when you said “to realize that I am not concerned with them as a product coming out of my ministry but that I am concerned with their spiritual journey as a dynamic process for the rest of their life”.

My friend’s question did make me slow down and get out of “ministry details and organization” mode to listen, look, and watch our students more carefully. I don’t think there will ever be a good “objective” measure of spiritual growth or success in this tangled mess of youth ministry but looking for signs of increased capacity to love God and love others is where I started.

An example: One of our 7th grade students started the year by asking if we could play more games and do less talking about faith in youth group. I asked her to stick with it and see how things go for 6 weeks. Last week she asked if we could do more service projects….

When I started paying attention to our students – and got my head out of the calendar and other “busyness” – I got to see and hear things such as this. Beautiful glimpses of Jesus growing in the hearts of our youth…and reminding me that I can encourage it, nurture it, point it out, and try to create a place for it to happen through God’s help – but I can’t make it happen. Thus, success is going to be on God’s time…not mine. And thankfully, God’s time and His impact lasts much longer than mine ever will.