What are we doing this for — really?
March 6th, 2007
So I am on the phone with a friend and fellow youth worker yesterday that I haven’t spoken to in nearly 3 years. It was really cool to catch up with him. At one point in our conversation I asked, “So what can you tell me about your student community”? He said, “Things are going great. I have been very successful here in my 8 years.” I said, “Really? What do you mean?” He responded by saying, “Dozens of my former students are now serving in some kind of vocational ministry. A couple of them are youth pastors in New England, one is a missionary in Mexico City and three are serving as Christian school teachers, and so on and so on.”
His comments took me by surprise. First, I thought that he was joking so I kind of joked back and when he said, “No really … I am serious. This is one of the ways I measure my effectiveness.” I just about fell off my office chair… Second, I was surprised because I always remembered this person as one of the most humble men I know. I was shocked. I never heard him talk in terms of ’success’. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with idea of success but they way he was measuring it was alarming to me…
I let a few seconds of silence go by and distance us a bit and then said, “Dude. Do you really measure your success by how many of your students leave your ministry and go serve in vocational ministry.” He said, “Absolutely. Don’t you?” I said, “No. Not really.” “So how do you measure success?” he asked. “Not sure, exactly.” I remarked. “I am not sure measuring success is for me to do…”
I told him that I would think about his question through the rest of the day and then post about it. I asked his permission to share our little interchange and he obviously was cool with it or I wouldn’t be posting… :>
So, here is what I have come to decide my dear friend (and all of you who are now involved)…
First, what is success anyway? Where does that take and drive me? Where or what does the pursuit of success take me from? Is that what I (and you) are supposed to be enamored with? I don’t mind thinking in terms of my commitment to God’s calling on my life, my desire to honor God with my faithfulness, my passion expressed through my gifts, etc. and assessing who I am or who I am not and possibly should be or could be. But determining what I think is and what isn’t success really isn’t my role.
Second, since success isn’t for me to determine then what is, right? Well, I think I need to assess who I am and who I am becoming. Hopefully I am (and evolving more deeply into being) an open, alert, honest, accessible, listening, caring, trusting, loving, God-dependent shepherd or guide that is concerned with helping students…
* on their way toward theosis
* realize that unique to how God has created them and called them, they are a significant part of his story and mission (no matter where they end up working)
* to critically think and journey their way to beliefs and convictions that ultimately determine their behaviors and practices that serve God in his passionate pursuit to restore people to himself and to each other
* to see that they are a part of God’s story and mission but also a part of his people or community — the church
* to realize that I am not concerned with them as a product coming out of my ministry but that I am concerned with their spiritual journey as a dynamic process for the rest of their life
So, my good friend, to answer your question I do not to measure success as it relates to how many of my students go into full-time ministry. I think that is a great calling – but it is not a better or worse thing so much as it is just how God chooses to place his servants. How will I know if I am doing a good job? I guess by assessing my faithfulness to what God has called me to do (the above). I think if I were to measure success as you do, I would become preoccupied with things like numbers, decisions, programming superiority, etc. How do I know? Because I would simply be returning to my old ways… Much love, brother.
For the rest of you out there… How do you feel about measuring/determining success? What do you use as a measuring device (or whatever)? I know that “bearing fruit” is important but evaluated by what? As always I invite you to comment or email me at chrisfol@mac.com.
March 6th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Interesting that I read this at a time when I was having a conversation with a friend about ministry and they asked me if I thought our kids were growing spiritually. It made me wrestle with similar thoughts to the ones you are sharing.
I agree with what you have shared here (and in your book) - especially when you said “to realize that I am not concerned with them as a product coming out of my ministry but that I am concerned with their spiritual journey as a dynamic process for the rest of their life”.
My friend’s question did make me slow down and get out of “ministry details and organization” mode to listen, look, and watch our students more carefully. I don’t think there will ever be a good “objective” measure of spiritual growth or success in this tangled mess of youth ministry but looking for signs of increased capacity to love God and love others is where I started.
An example: One of our 7th grade students started the year by asking if we could play more games and do less talking about faith in youth group. I asked her to stick with it and see how things go for 6 weeks. Last week she asked if we could do more service projects….
When I started paying attention to our students - and got my head out of the calendar and other “busyness” - I got to see and hear things such as this. Beautiful glimpses of Jesus growing in the hearts of our youth…and reminding me that I can encourage it, nurture it, point it out, and try to create a place for it to happen through God’s help - but I can’t make it happen. Thus, success is going to be on God’s time…not mine. And thankfully, God’s time and His impact lasts much longer than mine ever will.
March 6th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Wow, good question. But maybe this is a case of having a wrong answer because we’re asking the wrong question. I’m not really sure what the right question here is, but I’m feeling that trying to define spiritual success in earthly terms isn’t gonna quite work… I dunno…
Maybe the right question to ask is something like, “Based on my involvement in ministry, will God greet me one day and say, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.’” I know that’s still really intangible, but so is spiritually and what we’re ultimately working toward.
March 7th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
I just started reading Bo Boshers and Judson Polings new book ‘the be with factor’ and in the first chapter they talk about 3 things that really resonated with me on the topic of success n student ministry. (1)Jesus’ impact was one of personal transformation deep within the souls of those he touched; (2) Jesus was a success despite dismal numbers because the measurement that mattered wasn’t just a short-term body count; (3)Deep transformation of a few who continue to influence others is the measure we should gauge success by in student ministry.
I think if we are going to think in terms of success it shouldn’t be about “who is where” but “is there anyone that my life has touched that is in turn affecting and impacting lives for the sake of the Gospel producing real life chage.” Obviously real life change happens through the Holy Spirit and not us but are our student ministries producing life changing or life altering disciples of Jesus Christ? I don’t think we even have to produce them in “masses.” But have we touched someone’s life who is now helping to bring about change in someone else’s life because they are living for Christ with a reckless abandon?
March 7th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Dave, Tim and Chris-
These are really good thoughts. Thanks for your insight. Dave- Great reminder that things happen in God’s time, not ours. Tim- Yeah, that will be evidence of our faithfulness for sure! Chris - Nice Words. I was just talking to Bo today about personal transformation that is deep! He’ll be gald to know that those three things that you mentioned resonated with you… Thanks for your input!!
March 15th, 2007 at 8:15 am
i really like these questions. it’s really tricky isn’t it. I think it was W. Edwards Deming who said that 90 precent of what matters in an organization can’t be measured. (and he was talking about business, not the church)
How we measure or understand success is a very important question because it informs how we do things.
To really get this, we need to understand that unless a person or organization is really willing to do a lot of reflective work to understand his/her/their motivations, you probably don’t know what all of your measures for success are.
The result of our conventional measures in the church lends itself to manipulation. Who hasn’t felt the pressure to round the numbers up a bit when working for a church who values attendance figuires? or Wanted simply been a bit more preoccupied with getting more kids, because of the measurement standard? The problem with this type of measurement as well know is that the organization actually isn’t getting the information is actually wants! I believe all churches actually want to see people grow closer to Christ, to build his kingdom, to serve others, to care for the least of these. (but this could be my assumption)
The problem is, that the conventional ways of measuring success in a church actually lead the church away from what it actually values.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t measure, but I’m just advocating have a better understanding of what happens when we do and remembering that what we measure is only a very small part of what we actually value.
Over time measurement leads to reductionistic thinking.
Man I could talk about this for a long time… So I’ll drop a few more thoughts.
I think that creation is critical for helping us understand how we can measure.
Some things I’ve learned from nature.
1. Nature doesn’t count. A management accountant named H. Thomas Johnson taught me that.
2. Nothing grows forever. The other way of saying this is, everything dies. Which begs the question, what is a church life cycle and why do we see it as a bad thing when a church closes it’s doors. To embrace life as a church, we must embrace that our local church will not last forever and that this is a good thing.
3. Reductionistic thinking leads to mechanistic thinking… which disrupts our understanding of nature.
Ok. I’ll stop….
Thanks for the opportunity Chris…
I think this post might find it’s way to my blog.
March 21st, 2007 at 1:34 pm
I have been reading a business book that talks about business practices and how they are directly correlated to being a shepherd. Not everything in this book is applicable but it has totally revolutionized how I look and take care of my sheep because I am there shepherd. It will help answer the way we may or may not desribe success. It is an amazingly easy read as well.
“The Way of the Shepherd” Dr. Kevin Leman and William Pentak
March 22nd, 2007 at 1:00 am
A good farmer is the one who ploughs the ground to the right depth.
A god farmer is the one who sows the seed.
A good farmer is the one who fertilizes the ground.
A good farmer is the one who sprays for weed and pest control.
A good farmer is the one who keeps the fences standing so that livestock don’t trample the ground.
A good farmer is the one who gets his machinery ready for the harvest.
But if it doesn’t rain… and the sun doesn’t shine… and the crop doesn’t grow… does that make him a bad farmer?